It's been a busy week for Leo Waddell, transgender star of the controversial BBC children's documentary I Am Leo. Presumably he got special permission to take time off school to appear, firstly, at this year's Children's Media Conference in Sheffield, where he opened the BBC Commissioner Conversations session. Panelists included CBBC's Cheryl Taylor, and Kay Benbow from CBeebies.

Report by Simon Bor – Commissioner Conversations: BBC

Then, today, Leo was a speaker at Stonewall's Education for All Conference in London -

Now Leo isn't very old yet still there was no information out there for him or his mum #trans #EdForAll pic.twitter.com/GOGDTyDWbn

— Young Pride in Herts (@HertsYoungPride) July 8, 2016

Leo Waddell (left) with mum Hayley in London's QE II Centre - 8th July 2016

A significant issue in the build-up to the USA Presidential election concerns the rights of 'trans' people to use the toilet (in America 'bathroom' or 'restroom') they feel most appropriate for their 'gender identity'

That story has not been mentioned by CBBC Newsround, though a few weeks ago the programme did cover something about Republican candidate, Donald Trump.

All the fuss about toilets has given 'trans' a much higher profile than before, giving the impression that they are a sizable minority. But how true is that impression?

The answer to this very much depends on what exactly is meant by a 'trans' person. If the term is used to mean 'transsexual' then only a tiny proportion of the population are trans. However there has been a trend recently to phase out references to 'transsexual' and use the more general term 'transgender' which activists see as more appropriate for people of all ages, including young children. After all, isn't it unlikely the BBC would have made a documentary aimed at kids aged 6-12 if Leo had insisted in calling himself a transsexual?

Broadcasters, book publishers and many LGB allies have been persuaded into believing in the concept of 'gender identity' as opposed to birth sex. Unfortunately parents, too, have been taken in by all this. On seeing indications that their children are interested in the 'wrong' sort of toys, colours or clothes they're encouraged to rush off to quack clinics or 'support' groups, which then are all too happy to confirm that the kid is 'trangendered' and, in so doing, possibly condemn these children to lifetime drug dependency as well as unnecessary invasive surgery.

A more sensible approach is to disregard gender non-conformity except where a child repeatedly expresses the opinion that they are the opposite gender. In other words it may be necessary and appropriate, in rare circumstances, to give children an early sex education lesson, carefully explaining what makes a girl physically different from a boy. It's most unlikely young children will persist in their delusion if parents take time to explain things.

Last week's CBBC programme about 13-year-old Leo was introduced by Katie and Dodge T Dog. -

Katie: Now, as part of our 'Bye Bye to Bullying' week on CBBC, we have a brand new episode of My Life coming up next. It's all about Leo, who was born a girl, but lives his life as a boy. We follow the highs and lows of his journey as he tries to apply for a new passport - one which may officially recognise him as a boy. Here's Leo's story.

There's a brief summary of the programme in my previous blog entry. The documentary makers went to some considerable trouble to explain the concept of transgenderism, using coloured graphics to illustrate the points being made. We were shown pink figures wearing dresses but with blue-coloured brains, and blue figures with pink-coloured brains.

Trans people in diagrammatic form
Some very important issues were omitted - in particular the documentary failed, as CBBC usually does, to consider the issue of sexual orientation. Bearing in mind that the number of young people who are LGB is somewhat greater than the number of trans people, it was unfortunate that the producers didn't appreciate the need to carefully explain the difference between being gay/bisexual and being trans. I have attempted to raise this issue with Kez Margrie but, as yet, haven't heard back.

On Wednesday 19th November Katie was joined in the CBBC presentation studio by Tallulah Greive, who plays Lauren on Millie Inbetween, and by CBBC bully, Hacker T Dog, ironically wearing a 'Bye Bye to Bullying' T-shirt -

Tallulah Greive and Hacker (19/11/2014)
Katie introduced Our School as part of CBBC's anti-bullying campaign. Approximately five minutes of the programme dealt with homophobic bullying - an issue also covered on the previous evening's Newsround bulletin.

In the Our School episode Jessica and classmate Libby have been called names by an older boy at Conyers School. They report the incident to Year 7 Manager, Mr Livesey. Apparently the boy had tried to insult Jessica by calling her a lesbian.

Jessica: .... who cares if I was a lesbian, it wouldn't interfere with my life. I wouldn't be upset about it.

Mr Thoburn (narrating): As Year 7 are about to find out, using "lesbian" or "gay" as an insult is a serious kind of bullying. ... The School have invited Shaun Dellenty, a Deputy Head from another school, to talk to Year 7 about what happened to him when he was their age.

Shaun Dellenty told the Year 7 assembly that he realised he was gay at a fairly young age. And at secondary school he got bullied right from the very first day.

Mr Dellenty: During my time at secondary school I was spat on, laughed at, punched, kicked, hit, pushed, and I was told that I would go to hell. All of that by the time I'm your age. How do you think that might affect somebody - a young person, how do you think that might affect them?

After the assembly the kids talked about what they'd heard.

Shaun Dellenty taking a Year 7 assembly at Conyers School
Mr Thoburn: The assembly has really got the Year 7's thinking, and the discussion carries on in tutor time.

We then saw Class 7AG discuss discrimination and being called names. The teacher, Mr Glendenning, asked the class never to use the term "gay" in a derogatory sense.

Jessica: If you get name-called, that's a sign of bullying. I would just go and see your Deputy or your Head Teacher, tell them what's happening ...

Alan Turing was born on 23rd June 1912, exactly 102 years ago today. He died from cyanide poisoning at the age of 41. Whether he committed suicide or was murdered is, today, the subject of some speculation. One thing is for sure, though: Turing was a victim of homophobia. Sixty years later, and with gay people now allowed to get married, it would be nice to think the kind of anti-gay prejudice which led to Turing's death was a thing of the past. But unfortunately that's not the case.

In early 2011 I suggested BBC Children's should do something in time for Turing's centenary year. My email to Joe Godwin dated 10th January 2011 was answered on 24th January 2011 but with no reference to the Turing idea. The Centenary year came and went without any mention of Turing on the CBBC channel or on Newsround's website.

For a while it seemed Turing was persona non grata on CBBC. Then, this year, Absolute Genius with Dick and Dom devoted an entire episode to Alan Turing. But the failure to say anything about his sexuality gives every impression that someone at BBC Children's doesn't believe in equality for lesbian and gay people.

Many biographies of scientists in other episodes from the Absolute Genius series had references to (heterosexual) family relationships, so I asked a few CBBC executives including channel controller, Cheryl Taylor, whether they thought children might benefit from the knowledge that one of Britain's great geniuses and heroes was gay. No-one has ventured to answer that question. To do so would risk the ire of the department boss, whose discriminatory attitude was clear from a quote published in "Portrayal of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual People" (November 2012)

The second series of Wizards vs Aliens concluded yesterday with somewhat of a surprise - and I'm not referring to wizards winning an all out war with the aliens. No, the big surprise, for many, was that Benny has come out as gay to his best friend Tom Clarke. There's no denying that the relevant scene was very sensitively written and acted; though, as it happens, the word "gay" was never actually spoken.

Tom tells Benny that they need to save the world in order that Benny can go on his very first date. They win the war, and save the world. So the big question becomes whether or not we'll see any more of Benny. Will we ever see him go on his first date?

That was the last episode of the current series, and no decision has yet been made about the commissioning of a third series.

Benny coming out as gay might seem like groundbreaking children's television but, surprising as it may seem to those unfamiliar with Newsround Blog, gay characters first appeared on kids' TV more than twenty years ago. And although Benny has yet to go on his gay date, kids actually saw teens coming out and dating in the past, before programmes like Byker Grove and Grange Hill were axed.

The reality, then, is that children's TV has just recently been playing catch-up, and there's no guarantee that it'll continue to do so. There is no room for complacency. Furthermore, lesbians have been even more poorly represented on TV than their male counterparts.

Marrying Mum and Dad series 2 episode 6: Spy-themed civil partnership

Synopsis
The title sequence was almost the same as the rest of the series, but just at the end the caption flipped from Marrying Mum and Dad to Marrying Dad and Dad. Unfortunately the editing of this episode was not very consistent, and we often saw the "Mum and Dad" logo.

Marrying Dad and Dad
Naomi Wilkinson: Welcome to Marrying Mum & Dad, the show where you get to organise one of the most important days of your parents' lives - their wedding day.

Ed Petrie: I've just got to stop you there, Naomi. It's not marrying mum and dad today, it's dad and dad.

Naomi: OK, but the kids are still in charge of organising one of the most special days of their parents' lives?

Ed: Yes!

Naomi: And the lucky parents still won't know a thing about what's being planned until the big day arrives.

Ed: Yes.

Naomi: And we've only got a few weeks to get everything in place?

Ed: Yes!

Naomi: So we should probably be getting on with it then?

Ed: Yes, I s'pose we probably should! Let's go!

The family live in Warwickshire - dads Mark & Paul and their three kids Callum, Chloe and Paula.

Naomi: Dad Mark and Dad Paul have been together for 19 years, and the kids now think the time has come to make things official by organising a civil partnership - the ceremony that two men or two women have in place of a wedding.*(see Comments)

The theme of this episode was spying and spies. The kids went to a "spy school" where they were taught the tricks of the trade - codebreaking, observation skills and avoiding being detected by a laser alarm system. They suggested their dads should get to the venue by skydiving. Ed and the three kids had a chance to experience what skydiving was like at Airkix indoor dive centre.

The kids went on to check out a venue for their dads' special occasion - a large "spy HQ" country mansion with a marquee in the gardens. Cake maker Sarah from Sarah Edwards Cakes worked with the kids to make their dads' spy-themed celebration cake.

Callum, Chloe and Paula like to sing, so they suggested the James Bond theme song - Skyfall would be just right. Naomi arranged for a backing band to accompany the song.

The big day arrived and the dads, now dressed like Daniel Craig as 007, were driven to a secret location. But the penny dropped when they saw it was Hinton Skydiving Centre. Paul and Mark would have to jump out of an aeroplane 4000 metres above the ground! With wedding guests waiting below and the parachute drop completed successfully, the ceremony was ready to begin. But not before Paul and Mark managed to dodge the laser alarm system which had been set up in the mansion.

The ceremony over, and the two grooms kissed and hugged, as the guests cheered. The family were all delighted that it all went off so well. Absolutely perfect, said Mark.

Naomi: With Dad and Dad happily hitched, it's party time and another surprise!

Ed: It's time to reveal your spy cake, as designed by Agent C, Agent P and Agent Mini-Meister!

Lastly Callum, Chloe and Paula sang the Skyfall song.

It was clear everyone enjoyed a wonderful time.

Paul and Mark
-------

* Comments

Despite the huge success of the occasion Newsround Blog does have a few niggling reservations about the show. Firstly the term "civil partnership" was used way too often, when Ed and Naomi could instead have referred to it as a wedding. The programme did not make clear that two dads or two mums will soon be able to actually marry in Britain. I had previously asked the BBC to make that point clear, but they failed to do so.

Newsround is running a competition to dream up inventions that solve everyday problems. The competition was announced a few days ago, but they're still seeking more applicants. Here's the ending of Newsround's second bulletin this morning.

The results of a public vote of the most important past and future British innovations were announced on Monday. The Universal Turing Machine was voted top past innovation. Alan Turing's work, dating from 1936, helped break the German WWII Enigma code, and was instrumental in the development of modern computers

Yet despite the significance of Turing's work, and the fact that he was a British genius, it seems that bosses at CBBC don't want kids to know about him. In fact Newsround viewers could be forgiven for believing computers were invented by Steve Jobs. He's frequently been talked about on CBBC. Here we can see a him mentioned in a Newsround report about sand sculptures.

Alan Turing was never once mentioned by CBBC during the his centenary year - 2012. And Newsround ignored the top British Innovation vote, instead choosing to concentrate on the Top 10 rubbish inventions!

The Dumping Ground

Synopsis of Episode 5 - What Would Gus Want?
(The issues raised by CBBC will be examined in a future blog)

Care worker Mike has met a couple, Ronnie and Dawn, who want to foster Gus. But Gus, who has Asperger syndrome, is unhappy about being fostered. Mike suggests that Gus meets the couple and then decide.

Tyler is jealous, and hopes to be fostered by the couple, if Gus turns down the opportunity.

Gus agrees to meet the couple, in the hope of helping Tyler. When the couple arrive at Elm Tree House, all the kids there are surprised to find out that the couple are both women.

Johnny thinks the gay couple would not make proper parents, and Lily agrees. A heated 'debate' amongst the care kids ensues. Elektra is shocked by what she sees as Johnny's prejudiced attitude, and his younger sister, Tee, is also disappointed with Johnny.

Meanwhile, the couple are chatting to Mike and Gus in another room. It seems evident that Dawn, like Gus, has Asperger's. Gus informs Ronnie and Dawn that he doesn't actually want to be fostered and suggests they foster Tyler instead. But Dawn says "We don't want Tyler. We wanted you. If you don't want us there's no point in continuing." They leave, but the kids at Elm Tree House are still arguing amongst themselves.

Gus thinks over the fostering idea and tells Mike he's changed his mind and wants to meet Ronnie and Dawn again. They both go round to the couple's house where Gus and Dawn ask each other pre-prepared questions from their notebooks.

Gus cannot quite decide whether or not he wants to be fostered. Faith explains he would get more attention if he lived with the couple, and that would help him achieve his goal of a career as a forensic scientist. Gus is persuaded despite some late misgivings. He has concerns about the disruption of moving his belongings. The other kids devise a plan to help him make the move.

Gus goes to live with the couple, and the care kids resolve all their differences. Frank suggests they all go bowling to help cheer them up now that Gus has gone.

I contacted the Corporation on 11th December 2012 to ask about any diversity advances in children's programmes.

My email -

A few days ago the Member of Parliament for Monmouth, David Davies, said he believed "most parents would prefer their children not to be gay." 

Whether or not David Davies is right, the prevalence of prejudiced attitudes on the part of parents is quite troubling. So I was wondering what BBC Children's is doing to help kids feel OK about themselves, no matter what their sexual orientation.

Please could you advise of any recent CBBC drama series, or any in the pipeline, which actually include lesbian, gay, or bisexual portrayal as part of an inclusive approach? I believe that, in the past, such portrayal was considered appropriate by the BBC.

The BBC did not respond to the part of my enquiry about helping kids feel good about themselves but I was told about one programme - The Dumping Ground - which, the BBC said, "features a same-sex couple that would like to foster one of the young residents. The drama allows the characters to debate the topic and address the prejudices surrounding the issue."

However, it now seems the characters do more than just debate the topic and address the prejudices. According to the Media Centre website "Johnny and Elektra come to blows about whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt."

So what we really have here is a children's TV programme, scripted by adults, with at least one young person championing the prejudices of bigots.

A new Tracy Beaker spin-off called The Dumping Ground will begin its first transmission run this Friday on the CBBC channel at 4.30pm

Apparently the series will at some point include "a same-sex couple that would like to foster one of the young residents." Characters will, I'm told, debate the topic and address the prejudices surrounding the issue.

The following is taken from "Portrayal of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual People" published by the BBC in late 2012:

Diversity and Faux Diversity (part 1)

Writer Robert Evans, possibly had the best of intentions with Sadie J. But while the Series is, for the most part, enjoyable entertainment, it - like many other programmes on children's TV - suffers as a result of unwavering censorship restrictions imposed by BBC bosses. Note that the person in charge of BBC Children's also happens to be the most senior member of the BBFC Advisory Panel on Children's Viewing.

So how does this censorship affect children's TV programmes like Sadie J? As promised, I will now look in more detail at Gagalicious - the third episode in the new series.

In this episode, Kit's rugby-playing cousin Iolo is in town, but Kit doesn't want to meet up with him. Kit had previously pretended that he, too, was into sports and other "macho" interests. He's worried that Iolo will despise him when he sees what he's really like.


Sadie, Iolo and Kit (right)
Eventually Iolo discovers the truth, but tells Kit that it makes no difference: they're still good mates and there's no need to pretend any longer.

Presumably the intended message of this episode is that we shouldn't be ashamed of ourselves, and who we really are.

So who, exactly, is Kit?

He says he's fabulicious and proud. What does that mean?

To be continued ..

Last Monday Jon Jacob spent an adorable hour with Joe Godwin and Claire Rainford. Here is Mr Jacob's fifteen minute interview with Mr Godwin


Transcript

00'00" Joe Godwin: I'm Joe Godwin, and I'm the Director of BBC Children's. Which means I run the division of the BBC that makes all the services for children. That's two television channels - CBeebies and CBBC; two fantastic websites, and the CBeebies grown-up website. So basically anything apart from the learning and schools' stuff that the BBC does for kids, this department does it. And I'm the boss of it!

00'24" Jon Jacob: Day to day, though - I mean I understand the idea of what you're saying - but day to day what does that entail?

00'30" Joe Godwin: It could involve one of a squillion things. It could be having a meeting with people in the department about our strategy and our plans, whether it's channel controllers or heads of production. It could be working with other bits of the BBC on policy matters or BBC governance matters. It could be working with external people, whether it's politicians or pressure groups. Or it could be - as I've done this morning - going to check that they're building the Blue Peter garden properly. So a real range of stuff, which is why it's such a fascinating job.

01'00" Jon Jacob: And are they building the Blue Peter garden correctly? When can we see that happen?

01'05" Joe Godwin: Work is underway. There are men with diggers and trowels doing it at the moment. So what we've done is we've carefully removed Percy Thrower's Italian sunken garden from the former garden in Television Centre. It's been carefully brought all the way up the motorway, and it's being reconstructed as we speak. Of all the things people have talked to me about over the past year - about this great, historic move of one of the BBC's key departments to Salford - the thing most people have wanted to ask me is about the Blue Peter garden. And I'm pleased to say it's actually started to appear here in MediaCity in Salford.

01'39" Jon Jacob: Is that .. that very question .. I can understand why people are asking that question .. is there a little bit of you that feels a little bit frustrated about that? Do you feel a certain responsibility to that which has gone on before? Or is this .. by coming to Salford, is that a fresh start?

01'58" Joe Godwin: That is one of the key complexities of the role. That the BBC is funded on the whole by our audience's parents - not by the children who watch it. And we have a responsibility very much to them, as well as to their children. The heritage of BBC Children's is also very important because we're the trustees of this sort of national treasure, which is Blue Peter. I think the most interesting and relevant thing for me about it though - which is why it's important, and why we must remember these things - is it reminds you why children's programmes are so important to people. Because the programmes we watched when we were kids - and I watched John, Val and Pete bury the box for the year 2000 in the Blue Peter garden - and the fact that people of my age and older are still talking about it, still interested and still concerned, as well as being fantastic in terms of the general public appreciating what we do for children, just reminds me that programmes you watch when you're little on television can have a huge lifelong impact on you.

03'01" Jon Jacob: Is that why you decided .. or is it that point in time that you decided that you wanted to work at the BBC? Because I understand from some research that you knew pretty early on that you wanted to work in production, and work at the BBC.

03'13" Joe Godwin: I don't think as a young lad I was quite clever enough to have worked out the sort of philosophical reasons for the importance of public service broadcasting, or the meaning of high quality programming to kids.

03'24" Jon Jacob: But was it appealing though? I mean I understand you wouldn't necessarily have done that. Neither did I. But I wonder whether there was a certain appeal about the BBC because of the likes of Blue Peter?

03.35" Joe Godwin: I think that's an understatement. I think it would take a psychologist or a hypnotist to work out the true reasons. But from quite a young age I was a great fan of the BBC and BBC children's programmes, and again at quite an early age decided that's what I wanted to do. So to go from being a little boy in a small town in the Midlands who didn't even know anybody who worked in any sort of media to being the head of the children's department at the BBC is fantastic. It's like a boy growing up wanting to play for Manchester United and ending up as captain.

04'10" Jon Jacob: That wasn't the first job you had at the BBC though. You didn't sort of graduate and then become head of children's TV? You started in .. you started working on Blue Peter itself, didn't you?

04'21" Joe Godwin: No, I actually started working on South Today, the regional television news programme for the south of England. When I left university - I went to university in Manchester - I wrote thousands of letters, 'cos we didn't have email in those days, to people all over the BBC. Some of whom kindly replied, some of whom gave me job interviews. And I eventually got a job at the BBC in Southampton working on South Today as a station assistant. And then quite soon after that I got a secondment to the children's department as a trainee. And I first worked on Record Breakers, which a lot of people will remember as a fantastic long-running programme with Roy Castle, about Guinness World Records. And that was my first taste of actually working in children's programmes, was going all over the place with Roy and Cheryl Baker making fairly daft films about people doing fairly daft things. And then I moved on to working on a programme called Going Live, which was a very popular Saturday morning programme, where I learnt to be a studio director on live programmes. And then I moved on to Blue Peter when it went three times a week in 1995, as the producer of the new third edition. Then I had a few years working for one of our competitors. And then came back. Yeah, so it wasn't an overnight success - it's taken me about twenty-three years to get to this.

05'38" Jon Jacob: You said in another interview that your work on Going Live as a studio director was what made you go "right this is it, this is what made it all worth it."

05'46" Joe Godwin: I think I already knew that that was what I wanted to do. I think probably once I was working for children's programmes I realised the absolute unique satisfaction of making programmes for that audience. They're the most discerning audience, they're the most responsive audience, they're the audience most likely to turn over if they don't like something. Which is why the quality of what we do has to be so high. I think the excitement of directing a live three hour television programme with eight cameras, two live pop groups unscripted - it's probably like landing a jumbo jet with your eyes shut in terms of the risks and the thrill of it. And I think it was what first made me appreciate just how exciting what we do can be.

06'30" Jon Jacob: Am I right in thinking that there's no actual .. now I come to think of it .. there are no programmes like that on television now - live unscripted for three hours?

06'41" Joe Godwin: There aren't any programmes that are live for three hours unscripted. I get a lot of people saying to me "ooh why don't you bring back Saturday morning television?" And I'm afraid my answer is "it never went away, you just stopped watching it." I think with the fragmentation of audiences - because when I worked on Going Live there were three choices on a Saturday morning - watch BBC One, watch ITV, watch Channel 4 or go outside - four choices. I think now there are over thirty children's channels and countless other things to take up people's time, the days of those huge everybody-watching-the-same-thing experiences have probably gone. But we still make fantastic entertainment shows, sometimes on Friday evenings, sometimes on Saturday mornings. It's still there, but because it's largely on the CBBC channel, where it does fantastically well, a lot of adults - because viewing habits have changed - just aren't as aware of it.

07'30" Jon Jacob: So tell me something about the new premises that you're in now. You moved to Salford in July/August time, is that right?

07'40" Joe Godwin: I moved up here in May. So I'm now living in Manchester, although as I said, I lived in Manchester before when I went to university. And then we took best part of nine months to move the whole department up - the two channels and all the people who make programmes for it. Numbers about 350 - 400 people. So we came in groups by areas. And we all finally got here in November, when Newsround arrived and started broadcasting. So Salford Quays, MediaCity is now the home of BBC Children's. The great thing about it - obviously it was complicated moving, and complicated for individuals and their lives and their families. But from a work point of view this superb purpose-built broadcasting production centre for the Internet age - and as I've said before Television Centre in London, which I have a great fondness for and a lot of people have lots of nostalgic thoughts about it - but it was designed in the 1950's. It was built before colour television. It's not the easiest place to make modern content, web content, IPTV and all the exciting things that are coming. So in terms of how we do our work, this place is just brilliant. In Television Centre the department was spread across twelve fairly pokey floors of a ramshackle office block.

08'59" Jon Jacob: That was the East Tower, wasn't it?

09'01" Joe Godwin: The legendary East Tower. And now here in MediaCity the whole department is on two great big open-plan floors. So what that's meant for how we work is that people who wouldn't have bumped in to each other before or accidentally got chatting - somebody might have been in CBeebies web team, somebody else might have been on Newsround - and they would never have .. their paths wouldn't have crossed. Here we're already seeing, because the way people move about, and the open-plan setup, is a lot of conversations and collaborations that wouldn't have happened before, are happening. And that generates new ideas, new thoughts about how to do stuff. And similarly with departments like BBC Sport, who we previously wouldn't have had a lot to do with, I now know all the key people in sport. We talk about collaborating on ideas like the Big Splash and the Sport Relief stuff. And so creatively the buildings actually lend themselves to people being more creative. And the other great advantage of the building, which is a difference to Television Centre is, as you may have seen when you came in, the piazza is full of families and kids wandering around, going to the Imperial War Museum, having days out. And they can literally come up to the window of where we are. I overheard some little kids in the piazza saying they'd just seen Andy from CBeebies walking across the piazza. You couldn't have done that at Television Centre because you couldn't have got in to Television Centre. So we're physically much more open and welcoming, which is part of the reason we came here - to connect more closely with audiences in the north of England.

10'38" Jon Jacob: It is an odd thing, coming from London, as I have today, it's an odd thing approaching those buildings and seeing staff members sat at their desks right up against the window. And there's a little bit of me that fears that. Because I think I'm not entirely sure whether I'd want to be on display that way, but I see the advantages of it. I just wonder whether there's a .. I know when I work in different buildings or when I go into different BBC buildings there is a sort of a physical response to the different working space. I wonder whether you experience that still, or whether you've sort of gone past that now?

11'15" Joe Godwin: Do you mean to this space?

11'16" Jon Jacob: Yes

11'17" Joe Godwin: I think everybody still is very excited. I mean I've been here best part of a year now. But everyone's still excited by the facilities, the clean and tidiness of it. I mean we could do with a cashpoint a bit nearer, but I'm sure that's coming. But no it is very exciting and I get a real thrill from .. because we have three buildings here, and when you walk from one to the other I'm always bumping into members of our audience who are very excited they can actually come and see the BBC. And going back to what I was saying about growing up in a small town in the Midlands, I think if I'd been able to see the BBC and get this close to it, it would have really made me think well people like me can work for the BBC - we can be involved. And obviously a big part of what we're doing here is saying to people "you don't have to go to London to work for the BBC." I mean you never did have to, like I didn't. But actually this is a really big statement - that big important parts of the BBC with lots of opportunities have come to you. I think the memories, as I said earlier, I think the memories of things that mean something to you and imprint themselves on you when you're young can stay with you forever. And those are about finding out about the world, being inspired to do things, seeing exciting things and role models. I think all those things come in the best children's content. And that was the best children's content then, and we still do that - Blue Peter: Helen Skelton has just made her way to the South Pole. I mean what a fantastic role model for all of our viewers, to inspire them to achieve things. Not necessarily that, but maybe inspire them to do something about the environment or to go on some sort of adventure. So we're still doing that fantastic, really exciting, way of opening kids' eyes to new experiences and new places.

13'06" Jon Jacob: Is there a motivation when you're making children's programmes as well, that that thing you've described of being inspired as a kid when you watched something? As a producer, as a children's programme maker, is there a bit of you that thinks "I want to do that for you, for this generation, I want to make something that will inspire you," or is it just about making good entertainment?

13'31" Joe Godwin: I think it's a lot more than that. In fact that's all we think about, and I'll explain why. Our sort of internal mission statement, which we have, just to remind everybody what we're here for, what the licence fee payers are paying us to do, is to create unforgettable content to inspire all children across the UK. Now that may sound a bit grand, but everything we do, whether it's - let me sort of characterise it as, you know, say ChuckleVision at one end, and Newsround at the other, on this huge spectrum of stuff we do - everything we do has got the potential to inspire people. Now that could be watching a Newsround Special about what it's like to be a child in Kabul. And that could inspire you to think differently about things; it could inspire you to to do something. I think entertainment has been part of the BBC's remit since 1922, and I think it's very important to entertain children. Because being a kid can be quite tough. Getting home from school is a time when children often want to do something other than think about facts and figures. And so entertainment is important. But I think that in itself is inspiring to children, whether it's inspiring them to think how they can entertain other people, whether it's inspiring them to have a different view about stuff because of something that's made them laugh or they've seen someone do a performance and thinks "well actually I'd like to do that." So I think everything we do can inspire people. The thing about making unforgettable content to inspire people is to remind us all - as if we need reminding - that the best programmes, the stuff our kids will be talking about in thirty years' time will be the best quality stuff. It'll be stuff like Horrible Histories. It'll be stuff like Tracy Beaker and Sarah Jane Adventures. Stuff like Justin's House and ZingZillas. Of the highest quality, written with the best performers. And I know kids will be saying to their children in thirty years' time "Oh when I was a kid there was this brilliant thing on the BBC called Alphablocks, or The 4 O'Clock Club. So I think it's that quality that makes things unforgettable. And as I say, I think everything we do has some potential to inspire children.

LGBT History Month is underway, though there's been no sign of any move towards inclusiveness on BBC children's TV. Audiences are still being treated to casual homophobia. Last Wednesday, for example, on Sadie J, Jake came up with a clever plan to help out his friend. Danny exclaimed " .. that's genius! ... in fact I could kiss you right now!" Then, after glimpsing a scowl on his friend's face, Danny adds ".. but I won't."

Thursday's news that all twenty Premier League teams were to sign a Charter against homophobia was largely ignored by the BBC, and certainly not mentioned by Newsround and MOTD Kickabout. Sky, on the other hand did give the item substantial coverage, including this extended interview with John Amaechi.

MOTD Kickabout couldn't resist this on Saturday's programme: "His goals for Newcastle bought him love from fans, players - maybe too much love there."

So what exactly is the BBC doing to promote lesbian and gay equality on children's TV? And to what extent does worldwide commercial pressure affect how the BBC deals with the issue?

Perhaps we, or at least some of us, are about to find out in the next day or two. Because, assuming they're not stranded at the airport, Joe Godwin and his two chief underlings, Damian Kavanagh and Kay Benbow are due to speak at a summit session in New York Hilton's lavish Trianon Ballroom.

UK licence payers will want to know if we're getting value for money. So it is to be hoped that the BBC delegates will be reporting back in detail. Newsround Blog will be maintaining an interest, particularly during LGBT History Month.